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Novembers, 1991

A round table discussion
with Carter, Fast and Cane

Lawrence Fast

David Cane

As we enter the mid point of the 1991

SPECTRUM: Ross, speaking generally,

into next year's budget unless something

fall term, theie are a mtmbei of impor¬
tant items on the agenda for Vancouver

what is our current budget situation?

is done.

Ross Carter

Community College. They include the

CARTER: We still have one majoi area

In order for that not to happen, we are

cun ent and future budget situation, the

umesolved in this year's budget and that

holding talks with the Ministry and

1991-92 progt am profile, continued
oi ganizational change and the arrival of
om new pi esident - John Cruickshank.
With these items in mind, Spectrum
asked outgoing President Ross Caiter to
join KEC/City Centie Principal Lawi ence Fast and Langara Principal David
Cane for a lound table discussion about
some of these questions and concerns.

concerns the deliveiy of Aits and

representatives of the instructional

Sciences PTEs (full time equivalent
students). As we'ie currently budgeted

bargaining units to see what can be
done We want to go into next yeai's

we aie not going to make our PTE

budget without having to find approxi¬

target.

mately $2 million.

The other difficulty that grows out of

The root of these problems seems to lie

this yeai's budget is that we have
committed to spending one time money

in the underfunding that is provided by

to the oidei of $2.1 or $2 2 million.
That is a millstone we will be diagging

VANCOUVER gSSMti&l
COMMUNITY ^BHHI

COLLEGE MM

the Ministry foi vocational piograms.
That's what the College is piessing foi -

the addressing of that problem
SEE NEXT PAGE

1

FROM PAGE 1

"The root of these

SPECTRUM- If we addiessed the voca¬

tional funding piobiem and dealt with the

problems
seems to lie in the
underfunding that is

one time expenditure piobiem you
lefened to at the beginning, would we
then be in reasonable shape next yeai7
CARTER: Yes, we would be.

provided by the
Ministry for

SPECTRUM. David Cane, can you tell us
more about the Aits and Sciences PTE

piobiem7

vocational programs.

That's what the

CANE: There aie two problems One is
related to budget. We don't have an

College is pressing

adequate operating budget at Langaia this
yeai to dehvei all the Arts and Sciences

PTEs in Arts and Sciences, but the

for - the addressing
of that problem."

College was funded for 3245 by the

Ross Carter

PTEs for which the College is funded.
We expect to be able to dehvei 2800

Ministry
The second component is that because of
a change m the way PTEs are calculated

Seivice Woikei piogiam, m electiomcs,
and of couise m ESL

this yeai, it looks on papei as if we are
less productive than we weie m the past.

The other issue that lemains one foi
fuither consideiation is the leporting of

Oui PTE count has diopped by about 225

PTEs foi all the mstiuctional programs at

with no leal change in activity. That
compounds the piobiem

SPECTRUM. Is theie a solution9
CANE: The simple solution is to piovide
additional funding to Langaia so we can
offei moie sections for Aits and Sciences
students and inciease oui PTE count
That's limited to some extent by our

these two campuses You'll recall that the
Mmistiy has indicated some flexibility in
the calculation of PTEs and the activities
we can calculate. We are working to
lefme that but it's not easy because the
schedule of instruction was set up last

Maich and now to begm a different
schedule of counting is difficult. So that
lemams out theie and we have to woik at
it.

physical capacity but I think we could
dehvei the 3245 we'ie funded foi, given a

SPECTRUM: David, are you hoping not

full yeai to do it and given an adequate

to see a lepeat of last spring, when whole
progiams at Langaia suddenly went on the

budget

chopping block7
SPECTRUM Turning to KEC/City
Centre, Lawience, what is youi budget
situation this year7

CANE: I think we all feel that kmd of last
minute cusis management must end. It
cieates total havoc in the institution. It

FAST: We have now put the budget m

makes a mockeiy of planning

place foi both campuses and I think
theie aie a couple of piobiem aieas One
is in the support aiea The counselling
depaitment at King Edwaid had to reduce
by the equivalent of one full time counsel¬

We have undeiway at Langaia a majoi
process to plan educationally wheie we
would like the campus to go The poten¬
tial cut of ten per cent of oui mstiuction

lor The othei piobiem is in trying to
meet the demand which exists in ceitain
vocational aieas and in ESL.

came on us dunng that planning piocess
because of a budget cusis People undeistandably looked aiound and said: "why

We simply do not have the budget to meet

aie we bothering to do all of this planning
woik when the leality seems to be, we're
lucky to survive fiom one yeai to the
next?"

incieasing demand m a couple of aieas of
tourism and hospitality, m the Building

So that's got to be solved - long lange.
CARTER: And the mechanisms are in
place to solve it. Discussions are going on

with the Ministry and the faculty/mstractoi gioups to find a resolution to that 1
fundamental budget piobiem we've been
dealing with for seveial years.

SPECTRUM: On the question of lestiuctunng at VCC, I'd like to ask you Law¬
rence, foi a progiess lepoit on the KEC/

City Centie merger
FAST: I think you have to temembei that
this leoigamzation was a process that
didn't happen all at once. We began

talking about it last fall and we continued
thiough the spring. Even when we began
theie weie steps which were really only
completed on papei on August 19th.
We haven't had a lot of time to review.
Some parts aie woiking very well. I have
found the peripatetic principal's role

interesting, and quite enjoyable The
differences between the two campuses and
then complementaiy aspects aie great.
There aie othei aspects which need
impiovement Oui mstiuctional administiation is just too lean That's something
we need to review and discuss because f
after all, changes aie possible

One of the ically good things that has
come about is the discussion among the
seven division chans about the co¬
operation that could occui between and
among then piogiams. Theie aie some
real possibilities theie which aie being

discussed right now and that will be good,
in the long run, for the two campuses.

SPECTRUM: David, you have lost one
administrative position at Langaia Cam¬
pus recently (the Dean of Caieei Pio¬
giams, Ralph Ken). Does the futuie hold
other organizational changes at youi
campus?

CANE: The loss of the dean's position
was m lesponse to a budget piobiem. It
was not done for oigamzational reasons. It
was, and to some extent lemains, difficult
foi the campus to come to teims with
We'ie now opeiating with our five
division chans reporting to a single dean.

That's lesulted m the woikload of the f
dean and the division chairs and the
department chairs all changing. We'ie

SEE NEXT PAGE

FROM PAGE 2
going to have to find a way to provide
some additional support foi those people
so that eveiything that needs to be done
-an continue to be done. So in that sense,
,ieie is more work to be done. But I don't
foiesee other majoi structuial changes at
Langaia.

SPECTRUM: Ross, what is still left to be
done with legaid to oveiall college

"The profile we
projected over
three years is also
pretty stable.
Demand for career

programs is very

restructuring7

good. Even a couple

CARTER: Much of this was driven by

of programs that a

financial need. While there aie concep¬
tual icasons foi reorganizing at City

Centie/KEC and probably at Langaia also,
the basic thing that was driving this was
lack of dollais. Putting it into financial
teims, the College will, as a lesult of the

changes, save about $790,000 00 a yeai if
we continue with those positions vacant.
So in the sense of being moie productive
in terms of oui administrative cadie we

yeais' discussions but laigely fiom the
giowmg demand Theie aie now waiting
lists for most of our vocational piogiams,

some of which are already filled up to
next March, which is good news.
SPECTRUM' David, aie theie changes
coming up at Langara Campus9

CANE: The profile we piojected ovei
three yeais is also pietty stable. Demand
foi caieer piograms is veiy good. Even a

year or two ago we

couple of piogiams that a yeai or two ago
we weie concerned about, seem to have
picked up again. The aiea wheie we
would like to make an mciease is Arts and

were concerned

Sciences, but I think the most the campus
can realistically do is a few hundied

about, seem to have

additional PTEs - maybe to catch up fiom

picked up again."

Theie's no way we can meet the demand
for Aits and Sciences education that exists

David Cane

the 2800 to the 3245 level I mentioned.

in the lowei mainland. That's a system

pioblem. We aie limited by capacity

are almost eight hundied thousand dollais
moie pioductive.
SPECTRUM' Ross, what do you antici¬
working piogiam piofile A numbei of
pioblems which weie around last yeai - a
somewhat weak vocational demand, and
some changes which weie still conceptual,
have been icsolved. We'ie getting de¬
mand in tounsm and hospitality. We'ie

agieements expiring in the spimg. And
with each we'll go thiough a somewhat

eliminations to come?

getting demand in the vocational aieas in
ways we weren't a yeai ago So we've got

diffeient process. Langaia is coming off a
five yeai agieement and I'm suie the LEA

CARTER: Theie's more to be looked at.

a woiking piogiam piofile

The student services area and the adminis¬
trative services aiea of KEC/City Centre
will be leviewed to see if simplifications
aie possible But for the time being we
need to assess what we've done up to this

(Langaia Faculty Association) will have a
numbei of things they will want to talk

what will be happening at KEC/City

But the leal test is to see if this is an
effective way to admmistei a veiy laige
complex institution. That's still to be
^sted

SPECTRUM' Are theie still more

SPECTRUM' Lawience, specifically,
Centre regaidmg progiam profile
changes9

point

SPECTRUM Ross, concerning the
College's piogiam pi of He for 1991-92 can we expect a difficult fall with con¬
cerns and contioversy similai to last year7

CARTER: If we lesolve the financial
pioblems, no. The first cut at the progiam
profile has been done. That is on its way

to the Ministiy They will get back to us
in a couple of months to discuss theii
leactions to it and out of that should giow

FAST: The piogiam piofile we've
presented is a veiy stable one which has
addiessed growing demand m a couple of
aieas The first priority expiessed at City
Centie was foi the combined vocational/
ESL progiams and we aie trying to make
a case to include these in the base budget.
Theie aie a couple of other areas where
demand is strong tourism and hospitality,
electronics, and some paits of the business
division and of couise at King Edwaid

an agieeable (to all parties) piogram

Campus - ESL which is the peienmally
strong and some would call, tragic,

mofile

demand

As long as we'ie not dealing with that
pioblem in vocational funding, that $2.1
million I mentioned eailiei, we've got a

So the piogiam piofile we have piesented
leflects that and is otherwise a stable

progiam which has giown paitly from last

pate happening next spiing, when the
contiacts foi all baigaining units expire7

CARTER: We have foui collective

about The VIA (Vocational Instructors'
Association) is completing a two year
agieement and I would expect there will
be an assessment of theii most recent
contract (which was a considerable
levision ovei the pievious one) -how it's
worked and what needs to be done. It's a
similar situation for the VMREU (Van-

couvei Municipal and Regional Employ¬
ees' Union) and the BCNU (B.C. Nuises'
Union).

So these foui will all be open March 31st
and the College will entei into the collec¬
tive baigaining piocess with the objective
of getting good agieements which will be
satisfactoiy to the College and all gioups.

SPECTRUM' Aie we in a diffeient
economic climate than we were two
years ago7

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3

FROM PAGE 3
CARTER: Not ically. My impiession is

"One of the really

that fiom the wages, salanes and benefits
point of view the thing that's driving the
collective bai gaming process is the
College's capacity to pay. We aie subject
to the swings and tilts of the piovincial
economy but the basic key is how we aie

good things that has

funded and oui capacity to pay
SPECTRUM' David, at Langaia what
sense do you get fiom the faculty about
theii feelings on this mattei as they go
into this penod"?
CANE: It's difficult to assess. I would
say that fiom both sides, the five yeai
collective agieement was a very long one
and I think we aie all looking foiwaid to
being able to make some changes. Theie
is some degiee of nervousness I think, as
theie is acioss the institution. The last two
lounds of collective baigainmg lesulted m

come about is the
discussion among
the seven division
chairs about

employees who aie to be involved in
making decisions That means a constant
flow of information, which we have
tended, particularly wheie it concerns
financial matters, to hold, as an institu- /
tion, fauly close to oui chests. We need
to put the necessaiy tools into the hands of
the people.

The other thing is that fiom my talks with

co-operation that

lohn Cruickshank, my perception is that
he is committed to a stiongly suppoitive
communication model for decision

could occur between

making. I think you'll find that same kind

and among their
programs."
Lawrence Fast

of commitment fiom him, to get
mfoimation out so that all decisions aie
informed ones

SPECTRUM Looking at the futuie should the College's fust development

re-oigamzation That's certainly some¬

priority remain the one outlined in "Seize
the Day" - to upgrade the Langaia facil¬

thing we want to keep up

ity7

SPECTRUM: What's happening at

CANE: I think it should remain our fust

Langaia in that area (consultation)7

pnonty because of the need to seive our
existing students well befoie we catei to
new students (foi example, by building a
fourth campus). The students who are
enioled at Langaia aie m a facility that's

stiikes and nobody wants that.

FAST: I sense too that there is great
concern about avoiding a strike and any
majoi confrontation this yeai and I

certainly shaie that I think one thing that
giew out of oui leal difficulties in the
spring concerning budget was the levelation of a numbei of shoitfalls in oui
agieement concerning contiacts and
lecall. I think we have mutual concerns

on that and we'll be happy to addiess
those because they concern us both.

SPECTRUM: One of the things which
came out of those difficult negotiations
was the question of "consultation" and

how that might happen more effectively at

CANE: I think the campus already luns
m a very consultative way. We have a
gioup called the Langaia Council which is
involved in just about all decisions on
campus eithei by making decisions or by
making recommendations That group
represents people from acioss the campus.
On the instiuctional side, because we
have very few instructional administra¬
tors, most piogrammmg decisions are
made with heavy involvement from
faculty That's always been the case at
Langara It's one of the very positive
things about the stiuctuie we have.

VCC. Specifically at the campus level,

twenty years old and has not had a major /
icnovation since it was built, although
theie have been some piecemeal lenovations.

It's also a facility which is diastically
oveicrowded. On the positive side
though, we have a beautiful 20 acre site
and can easily renovate and add to that
campus in a way which piopeily catei s to

the needs of the existing population, both
students and employees. That's the focus
of the Langaia icnovation pioject. It's not
to add people. It's to add impioved
facilities so we can seive oui people
bettei. And to seive our neighbourhood
better by being less mtiusive when it

staitmg with KEC/City Centie, what

I mentioned earlier the long range plan¬

changes aie planned on that question?

ning process that Langaia has underway.
That's a highly consultative process.

FAST: We are making effoits to provide

Virtually everybody on site has had the

the oppoitunity foi consultation much
moie than we used to We aie discussing
the possibility of larger committees to
deal with instiuctional matteis. For
example, all the department heads and cooidinatois might be involved m an
instiuctional council to deal with instiuc¬

oppoitunity foi input into departmental
plans, and those are still being built into a
campus-wide document That process is

tional pi ogiams We have also set up
question and answer sessions on a regular
basis at City Centie and King Edwaid
where all employees aie invited to ask
questions about the piogiam profile, about
lenovations, about futuie plans, about the

CANE: This renovation pioject has been
CARTER: First, it is absolutely vital that put forwaid to the Mmistiy m oui long
all relevant information flows to the
range facilities plan The price tag is
various groups m the College - the
approximately $45 million, with a third of

comes to things like paikmg and vehicle
access.

continuing.

SPECTRUM: Does this depend on new
SPECTRUM: Ross, how do you go about

money 01 is this being planned foi now?

making consultation tiuly meaningful7

division chans, campus management
gioups, department heads, and othei

that for seismic upgiadmg. We think

funding in the region of $30 million will
SEE NEXT PAGE

FROMPAGE4

, bf necessary to make the campus what 1t
should be. In 1eality all that money may
not come from the Mm1stry. We'll need
to look at fundiaismg. We'll need to
Jok at partnerships with othe1 g10ups to
make some of the wmk possible.
SPECTRUM: And is King Edward
Campus still step two m futme develop­
ment?

FAST: Yes Both campuses are full

We really have no room fm any signifi­
cant mc1ease in our capacity One of my
concerns, as you know, 1s that there me
no 1ecreation facilities at KEC and we
have a plan to try and address that w1thm
a 1easonably short time Beyond that we
would need an add1t10nal facility or a
maJm expansion of this campus to
address the needs of ESL students

"It is absolutely vital
that all relevant
information flows to
the variousgroups in
the College...We need
to put the necessary
tools into the hands
of the people.''
Ross Carter

SPECTRUM: Ross, 1s a fourth campus
for the whole college still on the wish
hst?

for the Ministry at this time. The 1easons
fm that he m the fact that land 1s 1elat1vely
expensive in the Vancouve1 area. Also, m
te1ms of population growth, the middle rmg
of suburbs 1s whe1e the action 1s. Neve1theless the College has identified the need
for an add1t10nal fac1hty and we will keep
p1essmg fm that

CARTER: It's on the College's books
My imp1ess1on 1s that as a publicly
funded facility this 1s not a high pnonty

SPECTRUM: In conclusion what do you
see as the p1essmg pnmities fo1 the commg
year?

FAST: I do thmk om maJor task 1emams

the quest10n of adequate fundmg for all
the programs at the College I thmk we
have to make eve1y effort to pe1suade the
Ministry that this 1s appropriate because
the need 1s there.

CANE. I want to see three thmgs happen.
I want to see om long term funding, om
operatmg budget problems, resolved fm
the whole College. That's c11t1cal. I want
to see fundmg commg for the maJm
facilities improvements that we need at
Langaia. And I want to see 1mp10vement
m the general climate at VCC m te1ms of
labour relat10ns, the envnonment and
1elat1onsh1ps between va11ous g10ups
w1thm the mst1tut10n.
CARTER· I will simply say that the new
president will be commg mto a ve1y vital,
yeasty, successful mstltutlon, with some
p10blems - fundmg p10blems, the prob­
lems of dealmg with mformat10n m a
large, complex orgamzatlon, but 1eally an
mst1tut10n that has played a s1gmf1cant
10le m Vancouver and will contmue to do
so. It's a g1eat mst1tut10n - always
p10vocat1ve and lively.

5